In this episode of Off The Record with Gerstner Adam Law, host Paul Adam and co-host Colin Gerstner discuss how personal injury and workers’ compensation cases can be resolved in very different ways depending on the facts, the insurer’s position, and the legal leverage involved. They share examples of recent cases, including one resolved before litigation through strategic negotiation and medical evidence, and another that required filing a lawsuit and going through mediation to reach a favorable settlement. Paul and Colin explain why injured people should speak with an attorney early, even if their case seems minor, because insurance companies often undervalue claims when people try to handle them alone. They also break down the differences between personal injury and workers’ compensation claims in Montana, emphasizing that while the systems work differently, experienced legal guidance can make a major difference in protecting a person’s rights and maximizing recovery. The episode closes on a lighter note with some humorous banter about dancing, karaoke, and Colin’s memorable Michael Jackson dance contest win.

Paul Adam 0:07 Welcome to Off The Record the Gerstner Adam Law Podcast. My name is Paul Adam, joined by my co-host, Colin Gerstner.

Colin Gerstner 0:13 Howdy

Paul Adam 0:15 Last podcast, we promised listeners we would delve right into all the burning questions they had. Just talk about the issues that people are calling it about. But before we get to some of that, Colin, since the last time we aired, I will say you have been on an absolute tear. We filmed our last episode last week. Early last week. And since then, you’ve had a couple of outstanding results. I think we have to talk about them a little bit, at least not so much the facts of the case, but just how you were able to resolve two very different, very interesting cases, but in two very different ways. The first, and I think you know what I’m talking about, was an auto accident case, which is very common in our firm, and we resolved it by settling, meaning we didn’t have to go to trial. We didn’t have to get a jury verdict. This was resolved without litigation. Is that right?

Colin Gerstner 1:27 Yeah, we didn’t have to file a lawsuit. So that’s what we call pre-litigation.

Paul Adam 1:31 Okay. So tell us a little bit, just real briefly, just the facts, like, what? What happened? What type of case was it?

Colin Gerstner 1:40 Sure. So my client, a great guy in the 70s, a rancher, an old, old cowboy type, was driving down Main Street in the heights and got rear-ended, smashed into from the back by a commercial driver, a person on the clock, a driver’s company. And it’s kind of interesting. So my client, he didn’t have a whole lot of medical bills. That makes sense.

Paul Adam 2:08 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 2:08 So we have different categories of damages that we try to recover. One medical bill, loss of wages, are another one, and then pain of suffering, and so outwardly, you know, my client went to the ER, had some consults, but no surgeries, nothing major, a little bit of, PT, most of that home, and no real loss of wages. He’s a cowboy, you know, sole farmer, so nobody’s cutting checks. So the fight was, what are his damages? And so one thing he had was an injured shoulder okay? And he went to his doc, and his doc said, you need a shoulder replacement. The insurance company follows a standard playbook: I send the record and note that his docs recommend a shoulder replacement. And insurance investors like so what he’s old, right? It’s just what happens to get old things hurt. I can attest, I’m in my 40s. You can cut that Ben. I’m 39 for the record. Yeah, when you get old, things hurt, shoulder, knee replacements. Happens, matter course. And the insurance company kind of dug in. They’re like, No, this, this was unrelated. They’re not doubting that it needs a shoulder replacement. It’s just not caused by this crash. And we had some back and forth. I was able to get an opinion by the doctor who wrote, just straight up, this is caused by this car crash. If it were not for this crash, you would not need this shoulder replacement.

b Yeah. So with that, I mean, I think that’s what happens a lot, is we, we get to the crux of the case. You know, the biggest hurdle, which a lot of times is medical causation, right? And that we’ve got some great doctors, some great surgeons in Billings, you know, folks that really care about their patients. And again, here, you know, our client has a primary care, you know, doctor that really, you know, really put the extra effort out there, helped him with that opinion is that, you know, I think a lot of prospective clients that call in have that question, though, is like, I how hurt do I need to be, to be get representation? Like, my neck hurts, you know, I’d like to see a chiropractor, but I didn’t break any bones. Do I need an attorney? Or I don’t have a surgery recommendation? Do I need an attorney? I mean, what do you normally say to those folks?

Colin Gerstner 4:50 Yeah, generally you do need an attorney, especially to get, you know, some of the not straightforward. So in this case, if my client hadn’t hired me, he wouldn’t have hired any attorney; you would have, you know, gotten this recommendation for surgery and sent the records to the insurance company. They would hold them just like they told me initially, hey, you’re old client, right? Get over it. You know, Medicare, or whatever, seemed to pay for this.

Paul Adam 5:16 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 5:17 And, but if you don’t have an attorney, you just got to live with that, right? What were you going to do? But you know, if you hire me or you or any other real plaintiffs’ law firm, they can, you know, strategize and learn how to get to where you need to go to resolve your claim favorably.

Paul Adam 5:34 Well, ultimately, it is. It’s the leverage that we have. You know, you’re not going to get what you’re entitled to if you can’t work that out on your own with the insurance company? Yeah, the attorney does have the leverage to ultimately file and serve that lawsuit and take it the distance to make sure you get what’s fair.

Colin Gerstner 5:52 Sure. No, I just had a case resolved recently where the client was a guy walking across the street, this person, I think, was texting. Just didn’t see him. Guys leaving the crosswalk and just got schmucked.

Paul Adam 6:04 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 6:04 Just blown up crossing the street. Hurt badly. Anyway, the guy tried to resolve on his own, and the insurance company, they maxed out at $3,000 bucks, and that was it. They told him, like, hey, this is it.

Paul Adam 6:19 That was their best offer. So when the client came to us, that’s what he had on the table.

Colin Gerstner 6:24 Correct, yep, he’s like, Hey, what do you think is fair? Do I need to hire an attorney? And he ended up hiring us, and the insurance company gave me a policy in the states. And I think the difference was that, you know, I like you mentioned, add leverage, right? And so at the end of the day, if you can’t settle your case, your option is to file a lawsuit and sue the other driver. And that’s something most people just can’t do by themselves, right? So this other client that hid in the intersection, he was never going to by himself, you know, sue the other driver, and insurance committee knew that, and so, but when you know I appeared on it, they know that’s what I do for a living. I am a litigator, a trial lawyer. So that brought them to the table to just flop their policy limits.

Paul Adam 7:15 Okay. And so, you know, back to your the case you settled last week, you mentioned that this was this all happened pre litigation, meaning we didn’t have to file a lawsuit. We didn’t have to serve we didn’t have to sue anybody. The insurance company never hired defense counsel, and you were able to resolve that by selling pretty much through what emails, phone calls. I mean, how does it work?

Colin Gerstner 7:42 So we gathered the medical records, and then we submitted a demand letter to the insurer, and then that kind of brought some back and forth. Initially were able to prevent the medical causation letter. And then after some back and forth, they came back with an actual, meaningful offer, and we were able to negotiate from there.

Paul Adam 8:06 Okay. And when you say back and forth, you’re talking about trading numbers

Colin Gerstner 8:10 Initially, it’s kind of talking about the facts of the case before we even talked numbers.

Paul Adam 8:15 Okay. Colin Gerstner 8:16 And so, yeah, the insurance adjuster called me and said, you know, he’s old, right? This isn’t caused by this crash.

Paul Adam 8:25 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 8:25 And then I was able to say, you know, yes, it was more eloquent than that, eventually. And then after a while, did come down to exchanging numbers.

Paul Adam 8:35 Okay, so that’s I mean that I would say that’s a pretty common way that cases are settled here at the fund is pre litigation, where you’re able to work it out with the adjuster, not the case for that, that other case that you resolved, another super interesting case within one which you had to file the lawsuit, you had to serve it. You didn’t have to go to a trial. But, and also, we ended, ended by settlement. So kind of walk us through, yeah, what the difference was, why you had to take it a completely different route to get a good result?

Colin Gerstner 9:18 Yeah. So this case, I can’t talk about the facts so much, so we settled it at what’s called a mediation on Friday, last Friday, yeah, which is, I don’t know when this will air, but about six days ago, and we were still exchanging that the release, another word for a settlement agreement, so it’s not tied up yet. So I’m hesitant to really go into it. I want to someday. It’s a wild case.

Paul Adam 9:40 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 9:40 It was a case I was never going to settle pre litigation, to be honest, I never tried. We just drafted our lawsuit, served it went to litigation involved, you know, a deposition, written discovery, and then most courts now require a Selma conference or a mediation, where-

Paul Adam 10:00 Are those the same thing?

Colin Gerstner 10:00 Yeah

Paul Adam 10:01 Okay. I think people get, get hung up on that, like, because we use it pretty interchangeably. But, yeah, I don’t, I don’t think people necessarily know, or they think maybe there’s a difference, but you’d say it’s really, really the same thing, right?

Colin Gerstner 10:17 Yeah, I use them interchangeably, and so we’re going to mediation, court order, mediation. I was not optimistic at all that it was going to settle. We had kind of talked numbers with the other side before, and we were not close. We were very far apart, yeah, and on the other side, there was no indication. They were budging. I mean, I was convinced we were right on the law and the facts, and so we just sucked up our guns and went to mediation, and ultimately, we secured a pretty good result. I thought,

Paul Adam 10:50 Yeah, Colin, hey, you’re, I mean, I’ll, I’ll tell you from, from my perspective, like Colin, you just out-lawyered him. I mean, you had him. You had him beat on tough legal issues. I thought I thought you had, you know, really solid arguments that were in a, frankly, a pretty complex area of law. I mean, you filed this in federal court. So you’ve got a whole different set of rules. There a whole different, you know, way to prepare for trial, which you always have to do. You always have to prepare a case like you’re going to take it the distance.

Colin Gerstner 11:27 Yeah. There’s an old saying that if you prepare for trial, you’re probably settled. If you prepare to settle a unique tried case, yeah. And so you never want to call with your pants down, right? Always prepare as if it’s going the distance, and then if it settles something that’s fair, that’s great, all kinds. That’s better for the client, but sometimes you do got to take things in front of the jury,

Paul Adam 11:48 Yeah. And so in that case, you know, what’s interesting too, is using a mediator. And so you say you went to a mediation, which is a it’s a process where you’ve got both parties there, so all decision makers are present, but you’re not all sitting around the same table. You’re not, you know, staring the defendant in the eye like you know, this is a this is a separate process, and you’ve got a mediator who’s then going back and forth between the two parties in separate rooms, completely confidential from each other. And in this case, you use the federal magistrate as a mediator, which I think is a fantastic service to Montana, allowing us to use federal judges as mediators. Explain a little bit about the advantages there and what that experience is.

Colin Gerstner 12:44 Sure. So I guess initially, we are blessed in Montana, which is a great judiciary federal state. You know, here in Billings, we now have 10 judges. I am comfortable practicing from Baltic. I think they’re fantastic. Same with the federal bench. And so they’re what we call article three judges, or district court judges, and often that is the word for cases, for settlement, in front of what’s called a magistrate judge. And so we had a magistrate judge, serve as our mediator in your right. So we’re all there, we’re all present, but not together. We’re in different rooms at the courthouse, and the mediator would come in and talk about the case, and everything’s confidential, and so if it doesn’t settle, which, now, I’ve had mediations not settled, the media can’t go tell anybody about what was said. Yeah, and neither can we, neither can the parties. And so it’s kind of nice you can talk to a neutral, you know, Master judge has not a dog in the fight, right? He’s just trying to help you resolve it.

Paul Adam 13:43 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 13:43 And so it’s great now can discussions with the mediator, and ultimately, yeah, just bring the sides together, hopefully to number that that’s fair.

Paul Adam 13:53 Yeah. So in this one, and you were telling me after the fact, you know, I think you you were able to get to a resolution by lunch on day one, which is pretty surprising. Colin Gerstner 14:06 I was, I was shocked. In fact, I was literally having the Uber Eats app open, and they came back with this, a substantial move, and they finally came back. Wasn’t in settlement range yet, but it could kind of tell us going there, it’s like, wow, this might get a little hot, heavy.

Paul Adam 14:25 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 14:25 You know hold off on my lunch order, because I might go sell this before lunch even gets here.

Paul Adam 14:30 So clients that are in, you know, clients call us, or prospective clients call us at all stages of a claim. Some of them, you know, it’s right after they get injured, and it’s before you know, claims have even been initiated with insurers. Some of them, it’s on the brink of maybe a trial. I mean, we’ve picked up cases where we’ve had to go to trial in the next month and discovery is complete and we are we’re just handed a file where the evidence is what it is, and we had nothing to do with what got us there, which is that that’s a story that has to come out at some point. That was an experience, that was a that was a heck of a fun trial. I was the first, first jury trial after covid in federal court, up in Great Falls,

Colin Gerstner 15:23 Yeah, I think it was covid, right? Right after we teamed up, then a couple months, June, 2020,

Paul Adam 15:31 Yeah. I don’t want to derail us with that story, that’s a good one for a different time, but I kind of lost my train of thought.

Colin Gerstner 15:41 We have clients come to settle stages, generally, the earlier, the better. It just helps us get a handle on your care. Help us, you know, interface insurance companies from the get-go. Please, you know, if you’ve been injured, you really should have an attorney on your side, at least evaluate your case. Yeah, soon, the better. But if you find yourself hurt, you know, a year, maybe two years down the road, and yet, the insurance company starts talking settlement, you should, you should stick to an attorney before you really engage in that, definitely, before you settle.

Paul Adam 16:20 Yeah. And that’s, I mean, I talked to, I probably talked to more prospective clients. Well, I know I do that, that we never end up representing. In fact, Sarah, our paralegal, was said this just a couple of weeks ago, that I spend more time on the phone, talking to folks that I never intend to represent, and I might know that we’re not going to take their case for the first 10 seconds of talking to them, but, yeah, I spend a lot of time talking to folks, answering questions, kind of, you know, getting people pointed in the right direction that may not need an attorney, but yeah, you know, if you don’t call, if you don’t ask, if you don’t ask the questions, you don’t know what you’re you don’t know what maybe rights that you have in the system that you have benefits, that you’re entitled to, that you’re you just don’t know about. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Colin Gerstner 17:28 Sure. And I’m saying this. I mean, this isn’t a marketing podcast, but you need to call an attorney, whether it’s us, hopefully, but there are plenty of other good trial attorneys and Billings and the group in Montana, and so please call an attorney if you’ve been hurt, have them look at it. And you know, if we can’t help you, we’ll just tell you, we have conversations fairly routinely with the facts of the case or whatever. It’s not worth hiring an attorney over or pursuing anything more, but at least have somebody to look at.

Paul Adam 18:02 Yeah, and I will say, you know, so far, this has been all within the context of personal injury, auto accidents, mostly, although that, that case, you sell in federal court, definitely not an auto accident. And I know you’ve got some, some, you know, I used to, I used to dot you before you can talk about that, but it’s the same for work comp injuries too.

Colin Gerstner 18:27 So close more

Paul Adam 18:29 Yeah, well, it’s, I would say, I mean, work comp is all statute driven, right? And so, yeah, I know exactly what the law says. I don’t. I don’t, you know, I look at my job more as really just kind of protecting people’s rights, because I know what they are. I know what benefits you’re entitled to, because it’s written down in, you know, title 39 of our Montana Code Annotated. And so I can look at a case and say, Okay, well, here’s where the insurer kind of deviated from the law. Here’s how to get it back on track. Sometimes those hurdles are insurmountable without an attorney, and if they are, that’s when you need one, sometimes, and a lot of the time, I’ll tell I’ll tell a prospective client, boy, you, you’ve been doing a pretty good job, you know, navigating this yourself. You know, here’s what to look for coming up. Make sure that happens if it doesn’t call me.

Colin Gerstner 19:33 So we’re just talking about personal injury, kind of damages, and we’re combatting is, as a history nerd, part of me just finds it interesting. So at common law, right, way back in old England, up until, you know, 1900 or so, if you’re hurt on the job, yours SOL, right? There’s an old saying, you know, a servant cannot sue his master, or something like that.

Paul Adam 19:53 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 19:54 And then you have the progressive movement in the early 1900s, all suddenly at work comp. And so it’s. What we call the quid pro quo. Whereas you’re hurt on the clock, they’re hard to pay some damages, but don’t get the full pain, the suffering type of damages.

Paul Adam 20:08 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 20:09 So if you’re hurt on the job, what? What can you recover?

Paul Adam 20:12 Yeah, well, it’s, uh, you know, it’s a no-fault system, right? And so negligence is not a factor in work comp. You know, part of our line of work is identifying the negligent parties in work comp. Doesn’t matter whether the injured worker was partly at fault for their injury or whether the employer was the negligent party in causing it. There are some exceptions to that, but that’s generally the rule. And work comp is what’s called your exclusive remedy, okay? And so that’s your path. You don’t get to sue your employer, and you get what you’re entitled to in the statute, which you know the I would say, be the number one benefit, is your medical benefits. And I almost, without exception, start by making sure the injured worker is getting the medical benefits they’re entitled to from doctors they trust and like. They’re not getting railroaded by some other, you know, defense attorney doctor, that’s trying to throw the case off course.

Colin Gerstner 21:27 They have those?

Paul Adam 21:27 They have those. They have those. Anyone who’s been through a comp claim that is significant enough and ensures they are going to spend the money on their own doctor to get an opinion that they want. It’s maddening.

Colin Gerstner 21:42 You see, then for Sunday or two they, you know, they’ll trade you see to Doctor Who is not an actual treating doctor. There are professional defense witnesses, right?

Paul Adam 21:51 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 21:51 They’ll look at you, or not look at you. Sometimes we’ll look at some records, and I assume they read them and then give you the opinion they’re paid to give

Paul Adam 22:00 Yeah?

Colin Gerstner 22:01 But anyway I’m getting off topic, though.

Paul Adam 22:03 Well, no, but that’s such a common thing I see in work comp. And really, I would say, since the since the 80s, the trend in work comp has just been benefits have just been tightening up. Yeah, since, really, the mid-80s, a bunch of laws changed. 1999 again in 2011 and it’s, there’s a lot of ways out for an insurance company in work, cop and I, yeah, you know, I see what these cases are are resolving for, you know, because everything’s reported right. Settlements are reported to the Department of Labor, whether you have an attorney or not. All of this stuff is tracked. So I can see what cases are settling for with unrepresented clients versus, you know, clients with good attorneys. And it’s not even close. It is not even close.

Colin Gerstner 23:07 So let me ask you this. So you’ve kind of mentioned insurance companies, so then she’s on the job. A common question I get when I talk to someone with a potential comp claim is, you know, “Do I have to sue my boss?” Let’s see my employer. Because, you know, some really enjoy their job.

Paul Adam 23:22 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 23:23 I have good relationship with their boss, the owners of the company, and so they’re hesitant, right? Like, really good guys. They got hurt. Yeah, I don’t want to, want to sue them.

Paul Adam 23:32 Yeah, no, that’s such a good question. I mean, first of all, I tell them, you’re not going to have that option. But what I also like to ask prospective clients is, what, what does life look like in five years from now? You know?

Colin Gerstner 23:50 You don’t even like, necessarily present a claim against your employer, though, right? Nobody has insurance for that?

Paul Adam 23:55 Yeah, yeah. So your employer has paid a premium for a work comp insurer, you know? And there’s three types of work insurance out there. Some, you know, big, big employers might be self-insured, Stillwater Mine, huge employer, self-insured. You know, others are private insurance where they’re paying for, you know, other companies like the Hardsherd, or, you know, Liberty Mutual, these are private insurers that usually use a third-party agency, a TPA, to adjust their claims. And then the third type is the Montana State Fund. And you know, any any business out there that can’t, can’t get insurance from anywhere else can always get it from the state fund. So that’s a huge, yeah, that’s a large percentage of the Comp in Montana is the state fund.

Colin Gerstner 24:51 Yeah, so the employers have to purchase work comp, right?

Paul Adam 24:58 Yes.

Colin Gerstner 24:58 It’s like in a premium for. For it, and so you should use it. I mean, it’s never time personal, right? You’re presenting a claim against insurance company, not the boss. You’re not necessarily blaming the boss, like you said, it’s no fault base.

Paul Adam 25:12 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 25:14 injuries happen. Nobody’s fault.

Paul Adam 25:16 Yeah, but if you’re looking at the big picture and you want to stay at your job, I mean, your goal is to get back to work. You like your job. You like the people you work with. You just the accident wasn’t your fault. You just want to get back to work and get life back to normal. That’s most of the people that call in. That’s the specific path we take in handling your claim at the office. But there’s also, you know, a scenario where those prospective clients are like, Oh my gosh, my employer has been an absolute jerk since I got hurt at work, and they are. They’re making me sit, you know, in a corner and shuffle paper for my light duty, like they’re making my life miserable. I never want to be here again. And then we take a different path. And so that I, I think that’s what, that’s part of my favorite, that’s, that’s one of the favorite parts of my job is just kind of meeting people where they’re at, knowing what their big picture goals are, and then just adjusting my strategy for what their goals are. But no, I know all that to be said, there are a lot of differences between work comp and PI, but all kinds of stem from the same type of thing. These are injuries where you need attorneys to get the results that you deserve.

Colin Gerstner 26:52 And sometimes they’re the same right. The same injury can be both, so they’re not necessarily exclusive.

Paul Adam 26:58 Yep. And we talked about that last time, if you listen to our podcast last week, yeah, we were talking about that some of our best cases are, are those combination cases, combo cases where you’ve got a work comp and a PI claim? Well, Colin, I’ll tell you what, we covered a heck of a lot on this podcast.

Colin Gerstner 27:17 Let me jump in here. Last week, our first pod, I don’t know when this inner release, but our first podcast, I gave scorch, not take on the Ryder Cup.

Paul Adam 27:28 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 27:30 Anything I share, what’s your chest?

Paul Adam 27:37 Yeah, you did. Your pitch was for Nick Saban to be the captain the US Ryder Cup team.

Colin Gerstner 27:47 So something’s going to land on me. So Family Guy references this. This grinds my gears. I hate it when people urge you to do things they are not willing to do themselves. And so, I don’t know, dancing at a wedding, if you’ve been like, at a wedding, yeah, at a table and some song comes on, be like, oh, you know, go dance. Oh yeah, go dance.

Paul Adam 28:12 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 28:12 And they’re sitting at the table being bums, just like you, I don’t know man, another classic example is like, you’re on a karaoke bar.

Paul Adam 28:18 No, no, no, no, hang on there. I dance, man.

Colin Gerstner 28:21 Okay.

Paul Adam 28:22 Have you seen me? Have you seen me at a wedding before?

Colin Gerstner 28:24 I don’t think so.

Paul Adam 28:25 Okay, so I might. I would say I am an above-average wedding dancer.

Colin Gerstner 28:32 What’s your move?

Paul Adam 28:34 Oh, man. I mean, I don’t think they have names, to be honest, that. I mean, it’s just kind of, you just got to feel it. But no, I mean,

Colin Gerstner 28:42 What about a karaoke bar? You’re at a karaoke bar, and somebody’s urging you, hey, oh, go sing. Go sing.

Paul Adam 28:49 Yeah.

Colin Gerstner 28:49 But they themselves are refusing to sing. So, I think there should be a rule that you can’t, like urge somebody to do something in social setting, that you don’t do yourself

Paul Adam 29:03 Unless you’re willing to do it yourself.

Colin Gerstner 29:05 Yeah. So, I mean, I don’t know if you sing karaoke. I think you got sing your song that absolutely you should shame somebody into singing

Paul Adam 29:15 This is just something that just rattles around in your mind.

Colin Gerstner 29:18 Yeah, no. I have some I have some songs. I’m not, generally not a dancer, but Miley Cyrus, Party In The USA, I just can’t help. You know, the spirit moves me when I hear that song. My arms in the air, come on.

Paul Adam 29:33 And I hate to cut you off call and go where I’m not gonna let you do it. I’m not gonna let you sing that.

Colin Gerstner 29:37 No, no, I never would, but it’s uh, but now I’m like, I’m known for it. And so that song comes on, and people are urging me, go dance, go dance. And the same people are not dancing themselves. I don’t know, maybe, maybe it’s cranky, but that’s just been way on me for years.

Paul Adam 29:54 Yeah, well, I will say something about you, Colin. I’ve never seen you embarrassed. You, yeah, you’ve won awards with your dancing. As a matter of fact, that’s true, right?

Colin Gerstner 30:08 Yeah, it was the the Michael Jackson dance contest in Costa Rica.

Paul Adam 30:13 Yep, which, there is video footage out there,

Colin Gerstner 30:16 Unfortunately, yeah.

Paul Adam 30:17 And you know, maybe we can edit that in, maybe we can edit a clip in of you dancing on a cruise ship. Colin Gerstner 30:23 Ben, I think the footage has been lost.

Paul Adam 30:25 That footage is not lost. I know exactly how to get that footage. That would be a great way to end this podcast. So if you, if you listen to this, to this up to this point which you know, thank you. Certainly appreciate it. We will reward you with a clip of Colin. You know, some grainy video of him. You know, on his best Michael Jackson moves that won the award, right?

Colin Gerstner 30:49 Yeah

Paul Adam 30:50 You agree to it?

Colin Gerstner 30:50 Yes.

Paul Adam 30:52 All right, Colin. Again, this has been an episode of Off The Record with Gerstner, Adam Law, Paul Adam and Colin Gerstner, thanks so much for listening until next time. Colin

Gerstner 31:02 Take care. Be safe.